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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 15, 2010 13:54:27 GMT -6
A few things postmaster, I don't see how you can say that player to player Marquette has more talent. I'll agree that Bo is the better coach and does have the ability to coach lower talent guys up to play well beyond where people imagined them, but I think Wisconsin has more talent than Marquette right now. If that isn't the case, then Buzz is just a bad coach IMO.
Second, Buzz is not running the right offense for his players. At least to my eye it appears as though he is trying to mimic Kentucky with a drive and dish based offense. I don't think Marquette has the talent to rely on that. They also are seriously lacking outside shooting. They are 233rd in the country in 3pt shooting percentage. They don't have a guy who can knock down consistently from the arc.
That said, Marquette should finish over .500 in the Big East and should be in play for a NCAA spot.
As for Wisconsin, I think you may be selling them short postmaster. Barring injury of course, they should be able to compete for a Big Ten title this year. The Big Ten is stacked at the top with OSU, Illinois, MSU, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Minnesota all being very good teams. I think that will lead to all of them having at least 4 conference losses. Wisconsin has 9 home games, I think they win 8 of those. Then you add in away games against PSU, Iowa, and Indiana and that is already 11 conference wins. There are also away games and Michigan and Northwestern which I think Wisconsin can split or win both giving them 12 or 13 conference wins. That will be good enough for top 3 or 4 in conference.
Wisconsin is the 10th rated team in the Pomeroy ratings right now and 12 in the Sagarin ratings. Those are both very high considering Wisconsin is not ranked in the polls. I tend to trust these ratings more than the human polls, as they don't take into account preseason rankings.
Bo Ryan has had continues success in the Big Ten, and some disappointments in the tournament. I think some of those were very unlucky match ups though. Cornell was on fire shooting the ball last year, but still a disappointing loss. The previous year they upset a 5 seed and played Xavier tough, not a big disappointment. The previous year they ran into Davidson, can't complain too much about that. The previous year they lost to UNLV in the second round, but that was a very good team with Butch, not so much when he went down with the injury. Bo does have multiple sweet 16s and an Elite 8, it isn't like he hasn't done anything in the post season. Eventually he will get there, I'm not too worried about it, especially considering that every year they perform better than expected.
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Post by JRK on Dec 15, 2010 14:30:10 GMT -6
In terms of talent I think Wisconsin has the 2 best players, while Marquette has more depth. Id take Leuer and Taylor over anyone on Marquette icluding Butler. I give the depth edge to Marquette. When you are playing the likes of Tim Jarmusz I get concerned. If I had to pick a team to coach, I would slightly give the edge to Wisconsin just because of the top 2 players.
In terms of Bo, I am fine with what he has done with the program. They are consistently a good team that is going to be in the top 4 in the Big 10. But I can undersatnd Postmaster's question. Bielema is looking at a potential #3 finish in the nation, and in his first year I believe they were around #5. Bo's 1 Elite 8 pails in comparison to that. I think it is about time Bret Bielema gets his due for being a great coach.
I think Buzz is running the correct offense for this team. Their strength is their quickness, so I like ther emphasis on getting to the rim. Also they are very aggressive defensively and gamble a little too much, but that plays to their strengths so I am fine with Buzz's defensive philosophy.
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Post by postmaster on Dec 15, 2010 14:43:40 GMT -6
In a normal year, I believe Wisconsin would have better shot at the conference title. The big 10 is loaded at the top this year with OSU, MSU, Minnesota, Purdue and Illinois. MU is lacking shooters. DJO isn't shooting it like he did last year. Many said they were lacking shooters last year and they were one of the top teams in the nation in 3 pt%. I'm glad you have a positive outlook BHB that MU could make the tourney, I have a hard time seeing that due to not a solid win in pre-conference play.
As far as talent for talent, I was going more along the lines of depth. Leuer no doubt is the best on the court. Then it comes to down to Taylor and Butler. The depth is where MU has an advantage.
I was giving UW a lot of love in my previous post. Don't throw the "unlucky" card into the tournament discussion BHB. You are better than that.
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Post by GeauxGetta on Dec 15, 2010 15:19:02 GMT -6
There's no way Bo will parallel Bielema's success this year; if he gets Tokoto and develops him the way he should, then the Final Four is a possibility in upcoming years.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 15, 2010 19:21:44 GMT -6
In a normal year, I believe Wisconsin would have better shot at the conference title. The big 10 is loaded at the top this year with OSU, MSU, Minnesota, Purdue and Illinois. MU is lacking shooters. DJO isn't shooting it like he did last year. Many said they were lacking shooters last year and they were one of the top teams in the nation in 3 pt%. I'm glad you have a positive outlook BHB that MU could make the tourney, I have a hard time seeing that due to not a solid win in pre-conference play. As far as talent for talent, I was going more along the lines of depth. Leuer no doubt is the best on the court. Then it comes to down to Taylor and Butler. The depth is where MU has an advantage. I was giving UW a lot of love in my previous post. Don't throw the "unlucky" card into the tournament discussion BHB. You are better than that. I get what you are saying now with talent, I think that is a valid argument. I'm not sure I would agree with it, but it is definitely a debate. Also, I'm not saying that luck is the end all and be all of why they haven't done as well in the tournament. But it is a factor. You can't really call losing to that Davidson team a bad loss. And luck was definitely in play with the injury to Butch. They were a great team all year and Butch got hurt late and they weren't able to cope. Luck with match ups, whether you like it or not postmaster, plays a large part in tournament success. Now, of course, it is also overcoming things like that that makes a good tournament team and Wisconsin for the most part has been unable to do that. That is on Bo, I agree. Another part of the tournament disappointment discussion is expectations. In most of those years you tell a Wisconsin fan at the beginning of the year they'll go as far as the do then they would be happy. The teams then outplay expectations and when they exit earlier than their ranking it is disappointing. Bo is a great coach, he has national championships, he just needs to figure out how to translate that tournament success to this level. Bo plays Jarmusz because he doesn't make mistakes. He makes the correct decision 99% of the time. Is he the most physically talented guy? No. But he is the 19th best player in the country in terms of turnover rate. And the Big Ten title race I sort of outlined, but I don't see any reason why Wisconsin won't be right there. The way Leuer and Taylor are playing, this team is better than last year's. The Big Ten is very good this year, their lowest team in the Pomeroy ratings is Iowa at 79 and they have 5 teams in the top 15. It will be a struggle for all the teams, it will be about who can protect their home court and beat the people they are supposed to (Iowa, Indiana, PSU, Michigan) on the road. Wisconsin has always played tough in the KC and doesn't lose to the bottom of the Big Ten too often, so I see them right up there. For Marquette, they need to finish 10-8 or 11-7 at least to get into the tournament. DJO needs to find his game and they will need a few big wins, but I really don't think those two things are very improbable.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 16, 2010 8:46:22 GMT -6
I still was wondering what late first/ early second rounder in the last 10 years does Jon Leuer resemble.
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Post by GeauxGetta on Dec 16, 2010 8:59:06 GMT -6
Kirk Haston
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 16, 2010 12:06:13 GMT -6
Exactly
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 16, 2010 14:17:22 GMT -6
I still was wondering what late first/ early second rounder in the last 10 years does Jon Leuer resemble. How does he not go in the late first or early second? He is a 6'10" guy who can move, shoot, and create his own shot. Coaches loved him when he worked out with the national team this summer.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 16, 2010 14:45:46 GMT -6
What type of game do they play for the national team? Is it NBA conducive? Who was the national team coach? How successful has his NBA coaching career been?
CAN HE DEFEND IN THE NBA? He can create his own shot in the Badgers offense, I agree with that, but will he be able to in an NBA game full of athletic 6'8" players? I still am wondering what late first/ early second rounder in the last 10 years he most resembles?
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Post by BrewerNation on Dec 16, 2010 15:12:16 GMT -6
Don't knock Kirk Haston, he was great at Kansas and when he played for the Bulls.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 16, 2010 20:39:38 GMT -6
What type of game do they play for the national team? Is it NBA conducive? Who was the national team coach? How successful has his NBA coaching career been? CAN HE DEFEND IN THE NBA? He can create his own shot in the Badgers offense, I agree with that, but will he be able to in an NBA game full of athletic 6'8" players? I still am wondering what late first/ early second rounder in the last 10 years he most resembles? Look at the PF from last years draft even. Between 20-40. Craig Brackens, Trevor Booker, Daniel Orton, Tibor Pleiss, Jarvis Varnado. And 2009 BJ Mullens, Taj Gibson, Demarre Carroll, Jeff Pendergraph, Dante Cunningham, Dejuan Blair, Jon Brockman, Derrick Brown. Are any of them actually far and away better or even better than Leuer? If he defends well enough for Bo, he defends well enough for the NBA.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 17, 2010 8:00:32 GMT -6
I didn't ask for players that you think Leuer is better than. I didn't ask for you to name PF....I asked for you to name players that Jon Leuer resembles. Leuer is not even close to any of those guys. Bo's defense is so similar to defending in the pros....thats why Badger power forwards do so well in the pro game.
Naming random players is awesome thanks for proving my point.
GFORCE: Outstanding...you get exalted!
Let me finish by saying that I wish Jon Leuer the best after college. respect his game and love watching the Badgers play but I just don't think that he will be drafted that high. Badger success in the pros is far and few between.
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Post by JRK on Dec 17, 2010 9:35:29 GMT -6
Mason what are you talking about? Whenever I watch Leuer play all I can think about is wow he plays like DeJuan Blair!
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 17, 2010 9:40:24 GMT -6
I was thinking the same thing.....Actually he really reminds me of Tibor Pleiß.
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