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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 17, 2010 13:53:18 GMT -6
So those variables don't have any affect on defense? You know from experience? A longer time per possession does make playing defense tougher. I never said they don't affect defense, I said they do affect defense. That is why you cannot just say "As the number of defensive possessions goes up, playing defense gets tougher." That isn't true. It depends on all those variables. Also if you would agree that playing defense gets tougher the longer a possession goes then how does limiting (by elongating) possessions help a defense? Limiting possessions is not the reason why Wisconsin is a good team defensively.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 17, 2010 14:06:39 GMT -6
"Wisconsin defense is a product of their offense working the ball so long. They limit the number of possession in the game, therefore limiting scoring chances." That is my original quote.
I never said that Wisconsin is good defensively because they limit possessions. Just like on other topics you change the meaning of what is said to suit what you want it to. Again I repeat as the number of defensive possessions increase, playing defense gets tougher....because of those variables.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 17, 2010 14:58:28 GMT -6
"Wisconsin defense is a product of their offense working the ball so long. They limit the number of possession in the game, therefore limiting scoring chances." That is my original quote. I never said that Wisconsin is good defensively because they limit possessions. Just like on other topics you change the meaning of what is said to suit what you want it to. Again I repeat as the number of defensive possessions increase, playing defense gets tougher....because of those variables. "Wisconsin's defense is a product of their offense working the ball so long." What does that mean if it doesn't mean that Wisconsin is good defensively because they limit possessions? You criticize Leuer's defense and follow it with that. Playing defense doesn't get harder the more possessions of defense, it gets harder the more aggregate time a team plays defense. Whether there are a lot of possessions or fewer playing defense is harder towards the end of the game. I am telling you that your quote is wrong. Limiting possessions does limit total scoring chances, but that does not matter. Points per possession is what matters in basketball. Limiting possessions does not limit points per possession, good defense limits points per possession. Under Bo Ryan Wisconsin has had a great defense. That defense comes from discipline and fundamentals not as a product of their offense. Jon Leuer is a good defensive player, that is why he has seen playing time starting as a freshman. Rob Wilson on the other hand is not a good defender, that is why he doesn't see much playing time. If a player can play defense for Bo, they can play defense in the NBA
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 17, 2010 15:05:23 GMT -6
I never said Leuer is a bad defender....I question his ability to defend in the NBA. No you are wrong....Anyone who has played will agree....just because one teams philosophy is limiting points per possession doesn't make it correct.
Name Bo Ryan's players that made it to the NBA because of their defense ability.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 17, 2010 15:41:00 GMT -6
Basketball is about winning. What do you need to do in order to win? Score more points than the other team. How do you do that? Score more points per possession than the other team.
So offense is about getting a high number of points per possession and defense is about limiting points per possession. How is that not correct?
Teams who do those things on offense and defense are good teams. Teams who cannot do those things are bad teams. Look at Duke, they are 2nd in the nation offensively in points per possession (weighted for SOS) and 3rd in the nation in limiting points per possession (weighted for SOS). That is why they are so good, and why they win. That is why at the end of the game they have more points than their opponents.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 17, 2010 16:39:07 GMT -6
So if the Badger's offense averaged 5 seconds a possession their defense would still be just as good? There is a saying in basketball, "Expend your energy on defense, relax on offense." The time relaxing on offense helps with the ability to play defense.
I never said DPPP wasn't an important stat....You just seem to think it is the only stat.
Please make sure you publish your philosophy so no coach will ever lose another game. Please direct me to the site you got the info from too.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 17, 2010 18:55:53 GMT -6
www.kenpom.com Best rankings in college basketball. Wisconsin is not just relaxing on the offensive end. They work for a good shot. They don't stall just for the sake of stalling, if they find a good shot early they'll take it. A team like Tennessee or Duke still can have good defensive numbers with higher possessions. That doesn't mean they are better at defense, it just means they are playing at a faster paced tempo. 10 fewer or more possessions per game is not going to make or break a team defensively. If Wisconsin found a good shot in the first 5 seconds of the shot clock the whole game they would play just as good defensively.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 18, 2010 0:44:10 GMT -6
I never said stall...I did say they work the ball. Thanks for agreeing with me! 10 fewer possessions will make a difference.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 18, 2010 0:57:21 GMT -6
I never said stall...I did say they work the ball. Thanks for agreeing with me! 10 fewer possessions will make a difference. 10 Fewer possessions will not make a difference.
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Post by GeauxGetta on Dec 18, 2010 8:23:58 GMT -6
Either way, UW controls the pace of the game when they win. BennettBall only called for shots with under 5 seconds left on the shot clock, but Bo's offense emphasizes good shots (even though UW chucks up a lot of 3's).
Regarding Leuer again, I think he has more NBA longevity than Novak, but he won't be labeled as a 3-pt. specialist until he improves just a little bit (his 3-pt. % is astounding this year though).
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Dec 18, 2010 12:41:34 GMT -6
If a team averages 1.5 points a possession...your favorite stat.....10 less possessions is 15 points...yeah it wouldn't make a difference.
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Post by buckinghambadger on Dec 18, 2010 14:09:22 GMT -6
If a team averages 1.5 points a possession...your favorite stat.....10 less possessions is 15 points...yeah it wouldn't make a difference. First off, no one scores 1.5 ppp. Second, you aren't understanding this. The points don't matter, whether there are 10 more or fewer possessions, relative to the other team your team is still in the same boat. Extra possessions on defense equal extra possessions on offense. Say 50 possessions you score 1 ppp and your opponent scores 1.1 ppp. You lose 55-50. Say there is 10 more possessions, you lose 66-60. Sure they scored 11 points more, but your team scored more as well. PPP is what matters, not how many possessions.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Feb 9, 2012 10:32:01 GMT -6
How Leur doing after being drafted in the top 10?
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Post by buckinghambadger on Feb 27, 2012 14:07:01 GMT -6
How Leur doing after being drafted in the top 10? Absolutely hilarious that you would bring this up considering I was completely right. I said he would be a late first to early second round pick. He was. I also said he could be successful in the NBA, he has. He has started a number of games. He is one of the few guys on the Bucks that is actually able to score consistently. Probably should be getting even more PT. Do the draft over and he would easily be selected in the 1st round over all the "upside" busts. So how is he doing? A lot better than you thought and about what I expected and argued.
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Post by MasonJogerRoesch on Feb 28, 2012 10:27:13 GMT -6
Not better than I thought...If you've watched the games he's started he was in foul trouble in each one and his minutes were minimal. He's gone multiple games without even playing. You originally said he was going to be a probable first rounder. That didn't happen. His 5.6 points per game are actually more that I thought, I will admit that. When and if Bogut ever gets healthy again we won't be seeing Leuer anymore. Do the draft over and he'd easily be a 1st round pick? What is your reasoning? He's averaging 13 minutes a game on a terrible NBA team. If he we worth anything those numbers would be much better. So actually I was right.
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